On December 7, 2001, during the early days of his ministry, Prophet T.B. Joshua granted an interview to two crew members from the Messiah Television Network for subsequent broadcast on the famous satellite gospel channel TBN Europe. Standing between the two men, Prophet T.B. Joshua took great care to respond to their questions strictly under the leading of the Holy Spirit. As the wired microphone changed hands among the three men, who were later joined by a third crew member, the man of God spoke frankly about what it takes to perform miracles in the name of Jesus Christ, what it means to be baptised and filled with the Holy Spirit and who heads the church, among other issues of ministry.
As a way of showing the trajectory of The SCOAN’s growth since those early days under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we present a transcript of that insightful interview – to the glory of God.
Messiah Television Network: We would like to ask you if you could tell our viewers something about the coming into existence of The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations.
T.B. Joshua: The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations is just like any other living church. The Church is the Body of Christ, of which Christ Himself is the Head. I’m just a servant; Jesus is the Founder. So, He is the Head of the House. The Bible says He is the Head of the House – the Church. So, that is all about The Synagogue.
Messiah Television Network: Did you receive any special directions regarding the foundation of the church?
T.B. Joshua: Since Jesus is the Head of the ministry, the Head of the church, everything about The Synagogue – He’s in control. I’m just a servant being sent. I’m not the founder, so I take instructions from Him. He is the beginning; He is the end. So, that is about that. I’m just a partaker of the divine nature. Remember what the Bible says: When we receive the righteousness of God, we become a partaker of divine holiness. His life becomes our life; His energy becomes our energy. Everything about Jesus becomes everything about us. In Him we move, we live, we have our being.
Messiah Television Network: In a way, you’ve already answered my next question. I wanted to ask you by whose power and in whose authority you are performing all the miracles we have seen here this week?
T.B. Joshua: When we say, ‘miracle,’ Jesus Christ is the Miracle Worker and the Miracle Worker has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. In Him miracles happen. In Him we preach. In Him we teach. So, when we do things in Him, we do it as Christ would have done them. But if you don’t pray in Him, you cannot pray as Christ would have prayed. So, when we pray in the power of the Holy Spirit – that is, when we are baptised in the Holy Spirit – we have enablement: ability to move, to do things as Christ would have done them.
With the baptism of the Holy Spirit, one can pray as Christ would have prayed. What we are seeing in The Synagogue – Jesus is the One doing it. I’m just being used; I’m a human being. I’m a human just like any one of us. If there is any difference, if there is anything I’m doing you cannot do, I believe it is the righteousness of God inside me. The Bible says when we receive the righteousness of God, He is for us, He is on our side, He deserves our best.
Messiah Television Network: Prophet, did you receive any divine instructions regarding The Synagogue Church from the Holy Spirit regarding the near future?
T.B. Joshua: This is a good question. Remember our message last service day – when I said satan discusses our past, while Jesus discusses our future. When you look at the Book of John 14:2, it says, “In my Father’s House, there are many mansions.” So, this means He has planned for our future. The future is for Him. He is our future. Once He has entered me, He has put an end to my past.
And since He has put an end to my past, you should expect everything about the future of The Synagogue to be from Jesus Christ. He Himself is the very future we are talking about. So, concerning the future, the church, Synagogue, is a church of all nations. So, if you have not seen it in Holland, you should expect it any moment, any day but we cannot do anything on our own. So, it’s a church of all nations. As He wills, He does.
Messiah Television Network: Are there any specific directions regarding the near-future growth or certain plans with The Synagogue Church?
T.B. Joshua: You want me to tell you the mind of God?
Messiah Television Network:Yes, as the man of God.
T.B. Joshua: The mind of God, as we all know, is the answer to all fundamental issues of life. Since He’s the answer, there is no limit to what He can do and there is no limit to His grace. We cannot get beyond God’s love. We cannot get beyond God’s miracle. We cannot get beyond God’s care. So, you should expect something beyond human understanding. That is for the future. So, it is not something I can stand here now and start telling you. There is no amount of words I can use to describe it, so let me say, “beyond human understanding.”
Messiah Television Network: Can you say something for the Muslim people, especially at this time?
T.B. Joshua: I don’t want to go into religion because I’m not sent to preach religion. Religion brings about denominations. And when we talk of religion, that is when we can now say, “Synagogue Church, Redeemed Church, Muslim – Ansar-Ud-Deen – this and that. That is religion. I’m sent to preach righteousness, which is Christianity. Our belief in Christianity: Love everyone and trust only God. Whether you are a Muslim or not, love everyone and trust only God. So, that is that!
Where there is love, there is no fight. Where there is love, there is no dispute. Where there is love, there is no condemnation. Where there is love, there is no inferiority complex. Where there is love, there is no fear. Where there is love, there is no guilt. That is my message. I would advise everyone to embrace righteousness. Everyone should embrace righteousness because righteousness exalts a nation, while sin brings reproach.
Messiah Television Network: Do you have any affiliated churches or branches outside Lagos, for example, in Berlin, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, New York or anywhere else in the world? Either any branch or affiliated churches?
T.B. Joshua: This is a good question. People have been visiting here from all over the world. When some people leave here, they want to have a fellowship – just fellowship – because what they have seen here, they want to maintain that blessing. So, I have fellowships in the Western world. Fellowship – that is, when you get back to your country, you can come together and say, “Let’s fellowship and do the same thing. Let us fellowship and do what is happening in The Synagogue.” In The Synagogue, this is how we pray, this is how we do. We call it fellowship. It is not branches but fellowships for now.
In the Western world, we have only fellowships for now, because before you can have a branch in any country, you must have a Holy Ghost carrier. The Holy Ghost is the foundation of the Church. Without the Holy Ghost, you cannot do as Christ would have done. You cannot pray as Christ would have prayed. You cannot preach as Christ would have preached.
The Bible says the Holy Spirit supplies inspiration for preaching. The Holy Spirit supplies inspiration for prayer. The Holy Spirit supplies inspiration for teaching. The Holy Spirit supplies inspiration for doing everything. In order to do things as Christ would have done them, we must receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, not just being filled with the Holy Spirit. The Bible says not all that are filled with the Holy Spirit are baptised in the Holy Spirit but all that are baptised in the Holy Spirit are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Messiah Television Network: So, that means that outside Lagos, there is no church in the Western world which can call itself ‘The Synagogue Church of Germany?’
T.B. Joshua: We have fellowships. This ‘fellowship’ I have explained to you is different from a branch.
Messiah Television Network: So, nobody is allowed to use the name? I cannot go back to Rotterdam, for example, and rename my church as ‘The Synagogue Church of the Netherlands’ – that is not allowed?
T.B. Joshua: If you are baptised in the Holy Spirit, we are one. But if you are not baptised in the Holy Spirit, well, don’t try it. If you try it, it is a dangerous mission.
During the official interview session, Prophet T.B. Joshua shed more light on a few other issues as the third member of the interview crew from the Netherlands came into view and shared his impressions about his observations during his stay at The SCOAN. In response to the commendation from this third crew member, Prophet T.B. Joshua responded: “This is a wonderful message but T.B. Joshua should not allow this message to go to his head! T.B. Joshua just has to seek more of this grace. The goodness and kindness – I can still do better than this. So, he should keep pressing to do better than this.”
The man of God then spoke further on the place of the Holy Spirit in ministry and the Christian life:
“The Bible says the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to see what is promised to us in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to see what is promised to us in Christ Jesus. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot see what is promised to us; you will only hear miracles but you will never see miracles. You will only hear salvation. You will only hear teaching and preaching in the power of the Holy Ghost without even seeing one. But with the power of the Holy Spirit, we see what is promised to us. Salvation is promised to us. Miracles, healing are promised to us – and all of God’s blessings.
But the Holy Spirit is the Supplier. So, if you know Jesus, you must know the Holy Spirit. If you say you know Jesus without knowing the Holy Spirit – the only Jesus I know is Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no other Jesus. The apostles – because they knew Jesus, they knew the Holy Spirit. The Bible says Jesus was with them and the Holy Spirit was in them. Jesus was with them and the Holy Spirit was in them. So, if anybody claims to know Jesus, he must also know the Holy Spirit. Remember the message I passed across now – that all who are baptised in the Holy Spirit are filled with the Holy Spirit but not all who are filled with the Holy Spirit are baptised in the Holy Spirit.”